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Mark Beber

The King James Version is written in the stiff English people used hundreds of years ago, and we dont talk that way now. It would be like me writing in in street ebonic talk, and expect you to understand it. And you wouldnt, and it wouldnt do you any good. We just dont talk like that, and todays American people dont understand that kind of lingo. The NIV and Message are much better translations, and nothing has been taken away or added, it is just written easier to understand. Such as a comparison, if I were talking about a store not having a certain item, whether I said, "We dont have any", or "We dont aint got none", or "We are out of inventory right now", or "We will be bringing more in next week", I am not adding to or taking away from the meaning, I am saying that we dont have what you need, and Im pretty sure everyone understands that. What is sad is when people who purport themselves to be Christians, go all legal on saying a different translation is adding to or taking away from the Bible, when it is not at all. When I am witnessing the power of Jesus Christ to someone, God is going to use His power to work in them, when I use His word, whether I say it word for word as written in any certain translation of the Bible, or whether I am just giving the gist of what He says to that person I am witnessing to. Being too legalese is a bad thing for the Christian church to do.

Mark Beber

What I have found from further study of this, is that they had a big problem in Corinth with people speaking in tongues, and not doing it in an orderly fashing, with one speaking and one interpreting, so that the whole church could be edified by it. The women in this church were the worst violaters, and would just start blurting out tongue speach, thus disrupting the whole church. When Paul said he forbids women to speak in the church, this was his attempt to make them stop doing this. And the Bible in other areas does tell us that the man is the head of the woman, and it is written that the woman shall have no authority over the man, therefore, I feel it is wrong for a woman to preach from the pulpit, over the whole church body, but I have no problem with them sharing teaching in different class rooms.

Daniel

Well for all the people out there who say this is what I want so I will read this translation. It doesnt matter what you want all that matters is God said dont add to or take away from the Bible. Rev 22:18-19
Changing words and taking stuff out is going against what God said.

I find it funny how all the so call christians say they cant understand the King James Version, saying that its too hard to read and we need it to be broken down for us.

If Great Granddaddy could understand it with less then a 2nd grade education how can we not understand it with all the college we have now days?

And as for woman being over the man that is unbibical too part of the curse when Adam and Eve were thrown out of the garden was that the woman would be under the man. Gen 3:16

This does not make the woman less then the man she just can not have rule over one. Ladies have a very important part in the church it just is not behind the pulpit.

JLP

Mark,

1st Timothy 2:12 is in the present tense in the original Greek - indicating Paul is dealing with a current situation. He's not making a prescription for the church to follow for all time, but dealing with a specific situation.

In addition, there is a lot of controversy over how this verse is translated. A lot of people say the word translated "authority" does not refer to normal, positive authority in the original Greek. The actual word, "authenein" has a negative meaning. What exactly "authenein" means is up for debate. But it's not a positive form of authority.

Joe Hinman

1 Cor. 11:34 does not say for women to be silent. Paul is quoting those who say that and then refuteing them.

The 1 Tim. passage does not say women cannot have authority in the chuch. it was speaking of a particular group of women and a particular kind of authority.

Please read my pages on the chapter in 1 Cor 11:34 at

http://www.doxa.ws/social/Women/speak.html

Also, my pages on the chapter in 1 Tim on women teaching and having authority at

http://www.doxa.ws/social/Women/teach.html

Pat Gundry

Mark, many people would come to the same conclusion as you do after studying the material recommended to them by those who have come to that conclusion previously.

Years ago I found myself puzzled by that conclusion because there was so much in the Bible that appeared to contradict it. So, I studied extensively what I call the "problem passages" regarding women's participation in church, home and society, applying standard hermeneutical principles to them.

I really didn't know what I'd find when I began my study, whether God does want to limit women's participation or whether he extends full opportunity to them.

Eventually, I wrote a book about what I discovered in my study. It was originally published by Zondervan, and is now published by Suitcase Books.

It is posted, in its entirety on my website at http://www.patriciagundry.com where anyone can read it at no cost. The title of the book is Woman Be Free. I invite you to go there and read portions or the whole thing, where I believe your question will be answered.

Mark Beber

What does the verses in 1 Timothy Chapter 2 verse 12 refer to. I was pretty shocked when I read this and studied it, and with the parallel verses in Corinthians I see no other resolve than that which seems to be perfectly stated that women should not be allowed to preach in the church. I didnt have a problem with it, until I read this and prayed about it, and in my Christian walk I do need to adhere to Gods word, and not pick and choose what I want to hear and not hear. This is pretty cut and dried to me, and I have had to take the stance that God does not want this to happen, and unfortunated as it may be some day that if a woman would be appointed to the church I go to and love so much, that in accordance with following the scriptures, I would have to leave that church.

Ted Gossard

One other thing I'd like to add. I think in working through an issue like this there is for many Christians a time of conversion which is actually mostly progressive. Christians need to hear and read and look for themselves.

Years ago I used the NASB as my Bible and believed in what today is called an "essentially literal" translation. Over time, and for me with difficulty in seeing what translation from one language to another really entails- I came to embrace a different philosophy of translation which emphasized communication of the meaning into good clear language for those on the receptor side. So I became an adherent of the NIV and now, at long last now that the TNIV is finally out am an adherent to the latter. I wish the gender change would have been made in the NIV years ago. But in the process and difficulty that has come- I think some good has been achieved in making even a better translation than a revision in the early 90's would have been- my guess.

Ted Gossard

Pat, thanks for doing this. I think it is a great service to us. The Christian world needs a clear strong voice on the other side of the debate which many would seek to silence (I think of James Dobson and the SBC).

I for one am confident that translations like the TNIV will win the day over the long haul. The ESV along with the NASB and NKJV will always have its adherents even as the KJV and NASB had during the peak of the NIV. But people want a translation that is accurate in their heart language. And if they know that such exists, they will go for them, I believe.

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