Debate 2, And Critique: What Men Think About Women, Sort of

Pat: Well, Patoo, I think we should debate again, and this time do a better job.

Patoo: Good. I thought the first one was bordering on silly.

Pat: I'd say it was whimsical, tongue in cheek, and satire.

Patoo: That would be pushing it.

Pat: So, how about we discuss men today?

Patoo: OK, but not exactly.

Pat: What do you mean, not exactly?

Patoo: How about we discuss what men think about women, and all that it leads to?

Pat: Well, I like that, but it seems sort of arrogant to assume we know what men think about women, since we're not men.

Patoo: True, but I think we can skate around the arrogance, mostly.

Pat: And, what region of men's thinking about women would you like to address? The area is so vast.

Patoo: How about what/how traditionalist Christian men think about women, and some of the things that leads to?

Pat: Sure. We've observed a lot of those guys up close and personal. And some at a distance, fortunately.

Patoo: How about you take one side and I'll take another?

Pat: OK. Do you want to be the Daddy or the Mommie?

Patoo: I'll take the traditionalist male position, and you can take the egalitarian female position.

Pat: OK. How about we switch our names to Trad and Egal so our readers won't get confused?

Patoo/Trad: OK. I'm glad to have this opportunity to discuss such an important issue with you.

Pat/Egal: Thanks. I don't usually debate with trads. In fact, I make it a practice not to.

Trad: Why is that?

Egal: Because I find that most of the trads who want to debate don't intend to do it in good faith, it's generally a trap they're trying to set, and it's unsatisfying to deal with them.

Trad: Why do you think they do that? Not saying I think they do, but I've known trads who would probably do that.

Egal: I think it's a Jesuitical type of attack argument that they've learned from their ecclesiastical forebears. And, from thinking everything is war, operating from a military model--taking Onward Christian Soldiers too literally.

Trad: I'll try to avoid that approach. But, you must realize we see real danger in egalitarianism, and the way to deal with danger is to confront it squarely, and defeat it.

Egal: It's true, I think, that there is real danger to traditionalists from egalitarianism, but not the kind of danger trads think it is.

Trad: How so? We believe there is a great moving away from historic, orthodox Christianity into a secularization of the church, and egalitarianism is a part of that. We're trying to protect the church from watered down, diluted Christianity. We're fighting for its survival

Egal: It's easy, too easy, to see all change as being connected, when it isn't. In the case of egalitarianism, it's not a part of secular influences on the church. That can be proved historically. Egalitarianism has it's roots in the art and science o hermeneutics, the principles applied by all who seriously study and interpret laws and documents.

Trad: You egalitarians like to say that, but we are concerned, very concerned, that there is much more to it than that. We are concerned about radical feminism, the breakdown of law and order, drug use, marital breakdown, and homosexuality.

Egal: It's interesting that traditionalists usually try to tie all those issues to egalitarianism. But, they have absolutely no connection whatever. Radical feminists, of which there are very few, have a parallel in radical traditionalists.

Most traditionalists do not believe women are evil and should be violently suppressed. But, there are traditionalists who do believe, teach, and live that. You have no problem differentiating between radical and moderate trads.

The supposed breakdown of law and order just hasn't happened. There is actually less crime now than previously. The building of new and bigger prisons has to do, not with more crime, but with the commercialization of prisons, "law and order" issue electability of politicians, and imprisonment for petty crime and drug use. It's a national scandal.

Divorce is more common among people in Bible Belt states, where traditionalism is most prevalent, than in more "liberal" states. So, it can hardly be proved that egalitarianism, considered by most trads to be a liberal position, is the cause of family breakdown.

As for civil rights for gays and lesbians, that issue has absolutely no connection whatever with equal opportunity for women. Both are social issues, but they have no more in common than do the issues of ageism and racism.

Trad: So, what do you think traditionalist men think about women?

Egal: I think they think women are potentially dangerous, and best kept under some kind of control.

Trad: Do you think all trad's believe that?

Egal: No, I don't think it's a conscious belief for most, but that it expresses itself as an uneasiness, a discomfort, a vague fear that the unknown results of women moving out of their previously prescribed places will have repercussions they won't like.

Trad: We like the comfortableness of "how it's always been done."

Egal: Yes. Most traditionalist men haven't examined the egalitarian position and evidences. They like things as they are, don't want to change, and have no reason to look very far into the issue.

Trad: So, what's the harm in that?

Egal: In many ways, there isn't harm in it. In other ways, there is. If the traditionalist stays in a traditionalist environment, and is personally non-repressive of women, he can get along quite well, as can those around him who have the same beliefs. But, it's a system, and when something that doesn't fit the system enters or arises from within the system, it can get messy, and painful for individuals who become victimized.

Trad: For example?

Egal: Let's say the trad moves in a comfortable, non-repressive traditionalist environment, say a church where men lead, women participate and don't lead, and everyone seems pretty happy with that. But, a new family comes into the church headed by a severely repressive man who insists that women are participating in the church at a level that they should not. The system must either repress its women, or expel the man and his family from the group. If he is the new pastor, it's even more disruptive and painful, and victims will be created.

Or, another possibility, a daughter in the church begins to ask questions that no one wants to answer, or cannot answer well enough to support the traditionalist position. The daughter will be victimized. There are many other possibilities. These things do happen. Sometimes on a grand scale, as when extreme traditionalists took over the Southern Baptist Convention.

Trad: What you've said seems reasonable, but I'm not convinced. And, more than that, I'm not really interested in studying egalitarianism. I think it is not high on my priority list. I'm happy where I am, as are my wife and children. I am in a church that is flourishing, and I'd like to keep it that way.

Egal: Personally, I'm happy for you to be where you are with it. I think it's important for traditionalists to be straightforward and honest about their beliefs and non-attack oriented toward those who disagree with them.

Trad: Yes, I'm not comfortable with the attack dogs of either egalitarianism or traditionalism.

Egal: I'm not aware of any egalitarian attack dogs. There may be some, but I don't know of them. I do know some egalitarians who are somewhat abrasive and offensive in their manner. As for the attack oriented traditionalists, some are probably simply zealous people who think they are doing the right thing. Others, though, I'm convinced are either vicious power mongers who see the issue as a way to get more power for themselves, or men who are deeply fearful and distrustful of women.

Trad: From your perspective, as an egalitarian, I'm curious about what you would recommend trads do to improve their position.

Egal: I'd recommend that they treat women as well as they possibly can, look to see what their real needs are, and help them get them met. Not relying on some sort of mythology about women being "different" in any of the historical distortionist teachings, but asking women themselves what they need in today's world.

What, as a traditionalist, would you advise egalitarians to do to improve their position?

Trad: Provide educational materials, as widely, attractively, and freely as they possibly can. If they are right, and it's simply a hermeneutical/interpretation matter, then that is their best task--to let everyone know.

Egal: Thank you.

Trad: Thank you too.

Pat: Thank you, Patoo.

Patoo: And thank you too, Pat. We must do this again sometime.

Pat: Maybe we will, maybe we won't

Patoo: So, you think you're the one who will decide?

 

Comments

[Maureen]

It sounds like Patoo the Trad is also the one who sabotages Pat the Egal sensible one's attempts to go to bed at a decent hour. I'd suggest that Pat the Egal rule authoritatively on this issue since she is obviously the one best qualified to make the bedtime decision - although she shouldn't take any pleasure in having Patoo the Trad obey her as this would contradict her innermost beliefs. If Pat the Egal is unable to get Patoo the Trad to comply then I suggest that the next debate should be "Does Egalitarian Thinking Schismatize the Female Brain?" Maureen

[Pat Gundry]

Pat: I don't think egalitarian thinking schismatizes either female or male brains. But, I think traditionalist thinking does require a sort of schismatization of the female brain, because women are forced to disregard their own perceptions in order to follow its precepts.

Maybe Patoo and I just have a split
personality, independent of our egalitarianism.

Patoo: No, we don't.